"Part 1: Why Teaching the Ten Commandments in Public Schools is So Important."

Pastor Bruce: Howard, you are the author of the Amazon Best Selling book, The Spiritual Meaning of Scripture. Besides being an author, you have advanced degrees in psychology and business management. You have over 25 years of teaching experience as a California Community College instructor and as a senior adjunct graduate faculty member at California Lutheran University. You are also a very accomplished business owner, providing custom-made vehicles to some of the world’s most important and best-known people.

Your book’s website: TheSpiritualMeaningofScripture.com discusses the value of teaching concepts embodied within the Ten Commandments in public schools.

Pastor Bruce: 1. Why do you think that teaching these subjects in public schools is so important, and how do you think that this instruction should be approached?   

Howard B. Becker: Thanks for your introduction Pastor Bruce, and thank you very much for asking these very important questions.

Teaching concepts embodied within the Ten Commandments offers our public-school students a great opportunity to discuss thoughts, feelings and behaviors that greatly affect their mental, emotional and spiritual wellbeing. It also offers them a great opportunity to discuss how these timeless Principles affect the wellbeing of the secular world around them.

Here, I’d like to share two of my favorite Bible passages with you. The first one is taken from the Old Testament, which is reverenced by Judaism, Christianity and Islam alike. The second one is taken from the New Testament and underscores the entire Message of Scripture.

From Isaiah 45:19  "I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob seek Me in vain: I the Lord speak Righteousness, I declare things that are Right.” 

Regarding this passage, it’s very comforting and inspiring to know that according to Wikipedia, the word  “Righteousness” can be found in Indian, Chinese and Abrahamic religions and traditions, among others, as a theological concept.”

That reality implies that the importance of Righteousness instills a mutual acknowledgement among all of us, and transcends any differences between us. It brings hope and enthusiasm about the potential of humanity to find a shared Truth about why and how we must live our lives, and treat others around us.

The second passage is taken from John 14:15   “If ye love Me, keep My Commandments.” 

Our individual and collective need to abide by the Ten Commandments is proclaimed throughout the entire Bible, from beginning to end.

What are your thoughts here Pastor Bruce?  

Pastor Bruce: 2. Howard I would like to address the scripture that you mentioned in my reflection to you. First of all, you raise an excellent point about how the Ten Commandments guide a student’s mindset. Isaiah 45:19 says the Lord speaks righteousness openly—showing us that moral wisdom isn’t buried or obscure.  By presenting these timeless precepts, we’re giving young minds a clear path toward healthy decision-making. I see it as an invitation for them to explore the positive influence that these principles can have on their personal well-being and our wider community.

Then secondly, Howard, I like how you link these Biblical directives to students’ overall health. John 14:15 ties love and obedience together, hinting that rules are forms of caring. In the classroom, that translates to something bigger than simply following instructions—it’s fostering a community built on mutual respect. Might this perspective empower students to recognize that personal responsibility and compassion go hand in hand? It’s a question worth exploring in every educational setting.

Howard B. Becker:  I couldn’t agree with you more Pastor Bruce!

Pastor Bruce: 3.   So, Howard, how do you think these subjects should be presented in public schools?

Howard B. Becker: Bruce, that’s a question that deserves to be openly discussed throughout society, by the religious and nonreligious.

According to the US Constitution: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech.” This Constitutional phase is often referred to as the “Establishment clause.”

And so, as law abiding citizens of our country, if we are to approach teaching concepts based upon the Ten commandments in public schools, we must do so in accordance with this First Amendment of our Constitution. After all, our country was founded by people fleeing from religious persecution. And so, we must not attempt to impose any one, particular religion on our students. Rather, we must allow them to study these subjects with the freedom they need to honestly express themselves… and to draw conclusions on their own.

Pastor Bruce: 4. Ok Howard, fair enough. Now how do you suggest we go about that?

Howard B. Becker:  Let’s begin by looking back at US legal presidents and recent State legislation regarding religious education in public schools.

In the 1980 case Stone v. Graham, the Supreme Court ruled that a Kentucky law requiring the posting of the Ten Commandments in public school classrooms violated the First Amendment’s Establishment Clause. The court’s decision was based on the 1971 Lemon v. Kurtzman case, which established a test to determine if a law violates the Establishment Clause. Lemon v. Kurtzman held that all laws must have a “secular legislative purpose”
Moving two decades forward:

On June 21. 2022, In Carson v. Makin, the US Supreme Court held for the first time that a State must fund religious activity as part of an educational aid program.

Most recently:
On June 19th, 2024, Louisiana enacted legislation requiring every public classroom in the state to display the Ten Commandments.

And on June 27th, 2024, Oklahoma's Department of Education ordered every teacher in the state to have a Bible in their classroom, and to teach from it. They stated, "Every teacher, every classroom in the state will have a Bible in the classroom and will be teaching from the Bible in the classroom to ensure that this historical understanding is there for every student in the state of Oklahoma."

Given these evolving events, if we are to legally maintain the right to teach concepts based upon the Ten Commandments in public schools, our approach must serve a secular purpose.

Otherwise, we give opponents of this curriculum the legal grounds they need to prevent these subjects from being taught in public schools. And what Good would that do for our students, or for our secular society at-large?

And so, by approaching these subjects by focusing on the secular purpose they serve, we can also address the benefits they provide our students’ mental, emotional and spiritual wellbeing without violating the Establishment clause.
These subjects include concepts about forgiveness, fidelity in relationships, honesty, truthfulness, and selflessness. Conversely these also include concepts about hatred, infidelity, dishonesty, deceit and greed. All these subjects have been an integral discussion among almost all civilized nations, cultures and religions throughout the history of the world. They deserve to be part of our public classroom discussion.

This discussion very much serves a secular purpose in this country, and it matters greatly, whether you are formally religious or not.

And so, why would studying them with this purpose in mind offend anyone?

Pastor Bruce: 5. You’re making good points here Howard. So how would you propose to structure the curriculum so that it stays within the bounds of our Constitution?

Howard B. Becker: Well, public school teachers will have some great ideas about various starting places, and I encourage and applaud their exceptional creativity. Again, if they are to keep these programs in tack, they must be willing to focus on the secular benefits this study serves.

Personally, as a starting point I might suggest introducing these subjects with a discussion about the human soul.
I would suggest that teachers ask their students if they thought that the human soul is real, and if so, why?

I would also suggest that teachers ask their students if they thought that the human soul is not real, and why?
These questions might begin a very lively discussion, don’t you think so Pastor Bruce!?

Pastor Bruce: 6. “Howard, you’ve outlined an approach that honors both intellect and conscience. Isaiah 1:18 says,  ‘Come now, and let us reason together,’ pointing to the value of open dialogue. Asking students to reflect on the reality of the soul can spark curiosity, empathy, and thoughtful debate. I see this as a step toward understanding universal truths shared among diverse beliefs, without violating any constitutional boundaries.”

Howard B. Becker: I couldn’t agree more Pastor Bruce!

So, a teacher might continue by exploring the proposition that the human soul may indeed be real.
They might ask questions like these:

If the human soul is real, what is it…and how would you describe it?
Can the human soul be described as a form of life?
Can the human soul be described as something that houses our thoughts, affections…and our free will?
Do you think that our soul can survive our physical death on earth?
If so, do you think that it will reflect an image and likeness to what we have valued most in life?

And if so, do you think it can be developed into something extraordinary and beautiful, displaying the integrity of your character through the Goodness that exists within it?

Public school students are very likely to make some very energetic input here! They may surprise even the most experienced of us, so get ready for the ride ahead!

Please share your thoughts here Pastor Bruce.

Pastor Bruce: 7. Howard, I appreciate how you foresee students bringing fresh perspectives to these deep discussions. Proverbs 20:27 says, ‘The spirit of a man is the candle of the Lord,’ which can spark curiosity about how moral decisions illuminate our inner being. Encouraging such dialogue in public schools, focusing on the practical benefits, creates a welcoming environment for exploring purpose and meaning without overstepping legal boundaries.

Howard B. Becker: Excellent, and agreed!

Now, in the interest of objectivity, teachers should discuss the opposing point of view. And so, I would suggest that they ask questions these additional questions:

Is the concept of a soul a figment of our imagination?
Is belief in our survival after our physical death simply wishful thinking?
Is it likely that when our lives in this world expire, we will simply cease to exist?

These questions are also likely to be provocative, and they should be given equal time and respect for class discussion. After all, doubt about these things is a very normal and common human experience.

And so, to help students who may feel bashful about discussing these subjects, a teacher might wish to employ the rules of a formal debate. This approach will allow student participation through pro and con sides. The object of such a formal debate is not to declare a winner, but to reward students for exercising thoughtfulness and articulation in presentation.

These class sessions about the reality or folly of believing in the existence of the human soul are very likely to create some very exciting discussions. The skill of the teacher in managing student responses will be crucial to maintaining mutual respect and objectivity. Students who may simply roll their eyes are welcome to do so. However, being exposed to these ideas serves many purposes. One of them is to inspire future thoughts about the nature of human life. Another is to inspire thoughts about what this subject implies for the wellbeing of our secular society.

What do you think Pastor Bruce?

Pastor Bruce: 8. This sounds exciting Howard. I think I might enjoy sitting in on this classroom discussion!
What’s next? I’m at the edge of my chair!

Howard B. Becker: Ok, so to keep moving this discussion forward I would suggest that teachers offer their students some evidence supporting both sides of these issues, and encourage students to chime in along the way:

Teachers could start by pointing out that to date there has been no absolute scientific proof of the soul’s existence. Neither has there been any concrete scientific evidence about its continuance after our physical death on earth. Students may wish to discuss these topics further, which opens a universe of critical and creative thinking. Students should also know that there are many who are actively searching for answers about these very same topics.

One such organization is the John Templeton Foundation. They have granted over $1.8 billion to people and institutions that study and report on subjects like the relationship between religion and science. Here’s some information that I’ve paraphrased in part from their website:

The John Templeton Foundation has a religion, science, and society funding approach that supports this work. They fund studies that engage substantively and critically with the sciences on themes relevant to understanding how humans navigate spiritual and scientific questions within our diverse social and cultural environments. Their approach prioritizes interdisciplinary collaborations, including philosophical or theological engagement with the findings and methods of the sciences. That work must draw from a range of intellectual, religious, and spiritual traditions and demonstrate exceptional promise to transform human knowledge or have high potential to meet critical methodological or conceptual challenges.

Broadly speaking, the John Templeton Foundation is interested in asking questions such as:
• What can we learn from the world’s wisdom traditions about living good and purposeful lives?
• How are religious beliefs, practices, and communities changing and being changed by the world today?
• What does it mean to be spiritual and how does this impact our beliefs, values, and customs?
• How do we lead lives of meaning and purpose within the context of cultural and technological change?
• What roles do religion and spirituality have on the health of our communities?

These questions might form the basis of an entire class session, or two, don’t you think so Pastor Bruce?

Pastor Bruce: 9. I’ll say! I would love to hear more about what the John Templeton Foundation comes up with!
I’d also love to hear what the students have to say about these subjects!

Howard B. Becker: I agree Pastor Bruce!

Ok, so now I’d like to suggest that teachers discuss a little about what science does teach us about the world around us.

Teachers might begin by pointing out that one of the best indications that science offers us to date has to do with the nature of physical matter. Science has concluded that although physical matter changes form, it never just ceases to exist. Physical mass may change form, from solid state to energy, and from energy back to solid, but its continued existence in one form or another, has so far proven to be eternal.

And so, to think that our lives will simply cease to exist after our physical death goes against the implications that modern science has provided us about the nature of our universe. If physical things have been proven to be eternal in one form or another, why should “life” be any different?

Here is a very relevant quote from the New Testament that I’d like to share here:

“If I have told you about earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you about Heavenly things?” - John 3:12 

At this point I would like to suggest that teachers discuss circumstantial evidence drawn from the personal experiences of others:

Teachers might point out that human history is filled with individual and collective testimonies about our survival after our physical death on Earth. Every civilization, old and new, large and small, and near and distant has recorded testimonies about that survival. Those testimonies are ongoing, now being reported by many people who have survived near-death experiences in this age of modern medical resuscitation. Many of their testimonies are quite amazing, and what’s also very interesting is the great consistency in what they describe.

These topics may very well lead to some very animated classroom discussion!
And why would this discussion offend anybody Pastor Bruce?

And so, here’s a suggestion a teacher may wish to make here:
Denying scientific implications about the continuance of all things, in one form or another, or dismissing historical and current testimonies about our continued life after our physical death on earth, simply because we don’t believe they are correct, don’t understand them, or because they have not yet been proved in a physical science lab may be very shortsighted. Especially when considering their implications for our mental, emotional and spiritual wellbeing in this life, and just maybe for our wellbeing in the life to come!

This discussion serves a vital secular purpose, for it encourages our students to consider what kind of person they are allowing themselves to become.

Shouldn’t those implications be studied and discussed in public schools Pastor Bruce?

Pastor Bruce: 10. Howard, I see no reason this topic should offend anyone if approached with respect for all beliefs. James 1:5  offers, "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God..." That verse points us toward open inquiry rather than closed-minded dismissal. By focusing on moral development and well-being, we present these themes in a way that serves our students’ growth, without treading on anyone’s religious freedom.

Howard B. Becker: I agree!

And here's another Old Testament Bible passage form Isaiah 40:21 that has some terrific relevance here:

“Have ye not known? Have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the Beginning? have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?”

And so, Pastor Bruce, how do you think public classroom students might react to these questions so far? Do you think they might become interested in exploring more about them.... regardless of their political, cultural or religious backgrounds? Are we keeping this discussion objective? Are we talking about subjects that are relevant to understanding the world around us? Does this discussion serve a secular purpose for the moral and ethical benefit of the world we live in?

What do you think Pastor Bruce?

Pastor Bruce: 11. “Howard, I believe students would enjoy exploring these themes, precisely because they feel universal. When Isaiah asks, ‘Have you not known?’ he’s really inviting listeners to question their assumptions. In a public school, that invitation can highlight cultural, historical, and ethical perspectives. As we stay neutral about personal beliefs, the class gains exposure to the moral and societal implications of our choices—an angle that helps them think about who they’re becoming.”

Howard B. Becker: Terrific!
So, using this approach, I would suggest that public school teachers continue to encourage their students to look under the hood a little further. At his point I would encourage them to explore concepts about the meaning and implications of the Ten Commandments.

I would suggest that they explore critical questions about how we should live our lives, and why. I would suggest that they discuss the Ten Commandments as they relate to our mental, emotional and spiritual wellbeing.

I believe that this discussion should be an integral part of public-school education. After all, it relates to subjects that affect us all. It relates to answers about the way we should live our lives and treat those around us. This discussion matters, and very much serves a secular purpose for the Good of our society.

What do you think Bruce? Time for a short recess, or do you want to stay in your seat and hear more?

Pastor Bruce: 12.  I need a breather, Howard!
My head is spinning… in a Good way!!

Howard B. Becker: Ok, I got you!

Next session let’s drill down a bit further. Let’s begin to take a closer look at each of the Ten Commandments and explore what benefits they offer our students. Let’s objectively explore how applying them enables us to lead a better, fuller and more rewarding life. Let’s explore the ancient and timeless Wisdom they offer us about the most important things of all!

Pastor Bruce: 13. Thank you, Howard.
And as a Christion Pastor, hear are two other Bible passages that sure comes to mind!

"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

"These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full."– – John 15:10-11 

Howard B. Becker: These are two of my favorite Bible passages too!!

Pastor Bruce, I think we can all agree that public school teachers are some of the most passionate and compassionate people in our country. When it comes to promoting the wellbeing of our country's youth, they are deeply committed to bringing out the very best within them.

Allowing our public-school teachers to use their passion and compassion, along with their creativity, to reach the minds and hearts of our public-school students through discussion based upon the Ten Commandments fits perfectly with their heartfelt mission. Allowing them to do so without violating the First Amendment of our Constitution is critical for maintaining this invaluable curriculum.

Pastor Bruce: 14. Thank you, Howard. In closing, let me ask if you would be available to do another podcast with us about the benefits of teaching the Ten Commandments in public schools?

Howard B. Becker: Pastor, how about we do another podcast together, or two or three! Let’s continue to explore how we might teach the benefits the Ten Commandments offers our public-school students while keeping the curriculum within the boundaries of the First Amendment. Let's explore how we may structure this study in a manner that serves for the Good of all! Don’t you think there will be a lot of folks interested in how we may accomplish and perpetuate this goal?

Pastor Bruce: 15. The answer is Absolutely. I believe our listeners would be very interested. Howard, Let's do a series together and call it Teaching the Ten Commandments in Public Schools. How does this sound to you?

Howard B. Becker: I would love to do this series with you and your listeners. It stirs my heart!

Pastor Bruce: 16. Thank you, Howard, for sharing your thoughts with us today. I agree that teaching our public-school students about the meaning and implications of the Ten Commandments has much to offer them. I strongly believe that this curriculum will benefit our secular society at large.

I also believe that your approach will act to plant seeds, while staying within the bounds of the First Amendment of our Constitution. Teaching these timeless concepts in the manner you’ve suggested should help all concerned, while offending none.

For those who want to move deeper into these ideas, Howard’s book, The Spiritual Meaning of Scripture, offers a great place to start. You can find it on Amazon, Barnes and Noble or at your favorite bookstore.

His website, TheSpiritualMeaningofSpriture.com offers innumerable background details, contains revealing blogs, additional podcast interviews on the invaluable benefits of teaching the Ten Commandments in public schools, and provides a free download of the first two chapters of his book. You will find a wealth of marvelous information there.
I'm excited about continuing this conversation about teaching the Ten Commandments in public schools!

Dear audience, you do not want to miss listening to this entire series!

Howard B. Becker: Pastor Bruce, I’d like to mention one last thing before we end today’s podcast;
For those who don’t yet know him, Dr. Bruce Oliver is the founder and director of Bruce Oliver Ministries. He is the popular host of Talks For Christ - formerly Abundant Living Podcasts. Bruce has pastored churches from Texas to Georgia, his experience is vast, and his ministry is truly inspiring. Pastor Bruce, thank you for all you do!